8.29.2004
School has started. Yay. More on that as it develops.
In the meantime, I have finally decided to tackle a tough theological issue that has vexed me for some time. It is the infamous issue of freewill/human responsibility vs. divine sovereignty/predestination. Here is a blurb from a book that I think adequately sums up the two arguements:
The Christian faith presents us with a dilemma. On the one hand, we believe that God made us morally responsible beings with the ability to make meaningful moral decisions. If we were not able to make meaningful decisions, then why would scripture exhort us to turn from evil things or to lead godly lives? If we were not responsible for freely choosing our actions, then how could God justly reward or punish us for them? On the other hand, Christians also believe that God has sovereign control over all earthly affairs. He is the Lord of history and the Lord of our lives. We go to bed each night with the assurance that everything that occurs fits into his all-encompassing, preordained plan. Nothing can thwart God's plan; all that occurs is in keeping with his will. The dilemma becomes clear. Can both of these basic Christian beliefs be true? If we are really able to make meaningful moral decisions, then must we not be able to act against God's will? If this is so, then how can we maintain that all that occurs is in keeping with his will? If humans are free, how can God be sovereign? On the other hand, if God is in control, how can human choices be real? In what sense can we be held responsible for actions if God is responsible for everything? Can we be free and yet predestined?
# posted by Sir Omer : 8/29/2004 01:20:00 PM
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Hey Chris,
I think another fundamental assumption that needs to be brought into the equation here is that the same Bible needs to be the measure of what is moral. You see, I find that many denials of Calvinsism begin with an a priori assumption about the 'immorality' of God holding man responsible for choosing in accordance with his will if that will is influenced by external factors. Where in Scripture does God make that distinction? Doesn't he explicitly contradict such a notion in Romans 9:20 - 21? It seems to me like a standard is being formulated autonomously and then God is being held accountable to that rather than our standard being held accountable to God's Word. I realize that is everyone can make this claim, but I really think the objectors to Calvinism have given themselves a free ride here. Why must a decision only be culpable in a world where the will is not formed by factors external to oneself? Rather than start with that premise, I would say that after looking at the case from Scripture we should walk away saying that nothing more is required for responsibility than a man choose in accordance with his will no matter how much that will is influenced by external factors.
What's more, of all the possible explanations, which one brings the charge found in Romans 9:19? If that position receives the same criticism as Paul's position, isn't it likely to be saying the same thing as Paul?
Okay, I've blabbed enough. :-)
I think another fundamental assumption that needs to be brought into the equation here is that the same Bible needs to be the measure of what is moral. You see, I find that many denials of Calvinsism begin with an a priori assumption about the 'immorality' of God holding man responsible for choosing in accordance with his will if that will is influenced by external factors. Where in Scripture does God make that distinction? Doesn't he explicitly contradict such a notion in Romans 9:20 - 21? It seems to me like a standard is being formulated autonomously and then God is being held accountable to that rather than our standard being held accountable to God's Word. I realize that is everyone can make this claim, but I really think the objectors to Calvinism have given themselves a free ride here. Why must a decision only be culpable in a world where the will is not formed by factors external to oneself? Rather than start with that premise, I would say that after looking at the case from Scripture we should walk away saying that nothing more is required for responsibility than a man choose in accordance with his will no matter how much that will is influenced by external factors.
What's more, of all the possible explanations, which one brings the charge found in Romans 9:19? If that position receives the same criticism as Paul's position, isn't it likely to be saying the same thing as Paul?
Okay, I've blabbed enough. :-)
Whew! This is gonna be long, get ready. I'm not sure if this ANSWERS the dilemma necessarily or just leaves it right where you found it, but anywho, here goes (you can't say I didn't study it!):
Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Ephesians 1:5-6 "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will---to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:11-12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
Commentary:
(Romans 8:30) Some believe these verses mean that before the beginning of the world, God chose certain people to receive his gift of salvation. They point to verses like Eph. 1:1 that says we are "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." Others believe that God foreknew those who would respond to him and upon those he set his mark (predestined). What is clear is that God's purpose for people was not an afterthought; it was settled before the foundation of the world. People are to serve and honor God. If you have believed in Christ; you can rejoice in the fact that God has always known you. God's love is eternal. His wisdom and power are supreme. He will guide you and protect you until you one day stand in his presence.
(Ephesians 1:5-6,11) "Predestined" means marked out beforehand. This is another way of saying that salvation is God's work and not our own doing. In his infinite love, God has adopted us as his own children. Through Jesus' sacrifice, he has brought us into his family and made us heirs along with Jesus (Romans 8:17). In Roman law, adopted children had the same rights and privileges as biological children, even if they had been slaves. Paul uses this term to show how strong our relationship to God is. Paul says that God "chose us in him" to emphasize that salvation depends totally on God. We are not saved because we deserve it, but because God is gracious and freely gives salvation. We did not influence God's decision to save us; he saved us according to his plan. Thus, there is no way to take credit for our salvation or to allow room for pride. The mystery of salvation originated in the timeless mind of God long before we existed.
These verses give Paul's explanation of what it means to be one who has "been called according to His purpose" and why God keeps on working all their experiences together for their benefit (v.28). Believers are those God foreknew. This does not mean simply that God foreknows what believers will do, but that God foreknows them. Nor does divine foreknowledge merely mean an awareness of or an acquaintance with an individual. Instead it means a meaningful relationship with a person based on God's choice (Jer. 1:4-5; Amos 3:2) in eternity before Creation. "He chose us in Him before the Creation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). This eternal choice and foreknowledge involves more than establishing a relationship between God and believers. It also involves the goal or end of that relationship: Those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (1 John 3:2). The entire group that is brought into relationship with God in His eternal plan by divine foreknowledge and choice is predestined. God determined beforehand the believers' destiny, namely, conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. By all saints being made like Christ (ultimate and complete sanctification), Christ will be exalted as the Firstborn among many brothers. The resurrected and glorified Lord Jesus Christ will become the Head of a new race of humanity purified from all contact with sin and prepared to live eternally in His presence (1 Cor. 15:42-49). As the "Firstborn" he is in the highest position among others (Col. 1:18). Between the start and finish of God's plan are three steps: being called (Romans 1:6; 8:28), being justified (3:24,28; 4:2; 5:1, 9), and being glorified (8:17; Col. 1:27, 3:4), and in the process not a single person is lost. God completes his plan without slippage. "Glorified" is in the past tense because this final step is so certain that in God's eyes it is as good as done. To be glorified is another way of saying that God's children will be "conformed" to His Son; and that is God's ultimate "purpose". No longer will they "fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
The cause of election is God's predestination of believers into sonship. Predestined is from proorisas, "marked out beforehand." Thus the emphasis of predestination is more on the what than the who in that the believers' predetermined destiny is their being adopted as full-fledged sons of God through Jesus Christ, the Agent of the adoption. In this context it seems that predestination logically precedes election: after God looked forward to the glorious destiny of adopting believers into His family, He looked down on sinful humanity and chose believers. All this was done in accordance with His pleasure and will, that is, He delighted to impart His spiritual benefits to His children.
As a result of the spiritual blessing of insight into the mystery of God's will (vv. 8-10) Paul discussed the Jewish believers' inclusion in Christ. The we in verse 11 seems to be a distinct group from the anonymouse "we/us" in verses 3-10. This is supported by two facts: (1) verse 11 includes the word also and (2) verse 13 changes to "you also," which refers to Gentile believers. Though both Jews and Gentiles participate in God's blessings, the Jews were called first. In Ephesians 1:11 chosen (eklerothemen) is not the same word used in verse 4 (exelexato). The word in verse 11 (used only here in the NT) means "to cast a lot" or "to appoint or obtain by lot". In this context it is best rendered "to be chosen, appointed, or destined." Jewish believers were chosen because they were predestined. But this predestination is not a matter of whim or caprice on God's part; it is according the the plan (prothesin, "purpose) of His will (thelematos). The combination of these words---prothesin, boulen, thelematos---gives a forceful emphasis of God's sovereignty for including the Jewish believers in the church, which is headed up by Christ. The purpose of God's choice of Jewish believers is that they might be for the praise of his glory, which parallels verse 6. The words "for the praise of his glory" serve as a refrain used after a description of the work of each Person of the Trinity. The relative clause, who were the first to hope in Christ, further substantiates that verses 11-12 refer to Jewish believers as opposed to Gentile believers because the Jews did precede the Gentiles chronologically in the faith.
Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Ephesians 1:5-6 "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will---to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:11-12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
Commentary:
(Romans 8:30) Some believe these verses mean that before the beginning of the world, God chose certain people to receive his gift of salvation. They point to verses like Eph. 1:1 that says we are "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." Others believe that God foreknew those who would respond to him and upon those he set his mark (predestined). What is clear is that God's purpose for people was not an afterthought; it was settled before the foundation of the world. People are to serve and honor God. If you have believed in Christ; you can rejoice in the fact that God has always known you. God's love is eternal. His wisdom and power are supreme. He will guide you and protect you until you one day stand in his presence.
(Ephesians 1:5-6,11) "Predestined" means marked out beforehand. This is another way of saying that salvation is God's work and not our own doing. In his infinite love, God has adopted us as his own children. Through Jesus' sacrifice, he has brought us into his family and made us heirs along with Jesus (Romans 8:17). In Roman law, adopted children had the same rights and privileges as biological children, even if they had been slaves. Paul uses this term to show how strong our relationship to God is. Paul says that God "chose us in him" to emphasize that salvation depends totally on God. We are not saved because we deserve it, but because God is gracious and freely gives salvation. We did not influence God's decision to save us; he saved us according to his plan. Thus, there is no way to take credit for our salvation or to allow room for pride. The mystery of salvation originated in the timeless mind of God long before we existed.
These verses give Paul's explanation of what it means to be one who has "been called according to His purpose" and why God keeps on working all their experiences together for their benefit (v.28). Believers are those God foreknew. This does not mean simply that God foreknows what believers will do, but that God foreknows them. Nor does divine foreknowledge merely mean an awareness of or an acquaintance with an individual. Instead it means a meaningful relationship with a person based on God's choice (Jer. 1:4-5; Amos 3:2) in eternity before Creation. "He chose us in Him before the Creation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). This eternal choice and foreknowledge involves more than establishing a relationship between God and believers. It also involves the goal or end of that relationship: Those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (1 John 3:2). The entire group that is brought into relationship with God in His eternal plan by divine foreknowledge and choice is predestined. God determined beforehand the believers' destiny, namely, conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. By all saints being made like Christ (ultimate and complete sanctification), Christ will be exalted as the Firstborn among many brothers. The resurrected and glorified Lord Jesus Christ will become the Head of a new race of humanity purified from all contact with sin and prepared to live eternally in His presence (1 Cor. 15:42-49). As the "Firstborn" he is in the highest position among others (Col. 1:18). Between the start and finish of God's plan are three steps: being called (Romans 1:6; 8:28), being justified (3:24,28; 4:2; 5:1, 9), and being glorified (8:17; Col. 1:27, 3:4), and in the process not a single person is lost. God completes his plan without slippage. "Glorified" is in the past tense because this final step is so certain that in God's eyes it is as good as done. To be glorified is another way of saying that God's children will be "conformed" to His Son; and that is God's ultimate "purpose". No longer will they "fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
The cause of election is God's predestination of believers into sonship. Predestined is from proorisas, "marked out beforehand." Thus the emphasis of predestination is more on the what than the who in that the believers' predetermined destiny is their being adopted as full-fledged sons of God through Jesus Christ, the Agent of the adoption. In this context it seems that predestination logically precedes election: after God looked forward to the glorious destiny of adopting believers into His family, He looked down on sinful humanity and chose believers. All this was done in accordance with His pleasure and will, that is, He delighted to impart His spiritual benefits to His children.
As a result of the spiritual blessing of insight into the mystery of God's will (vv. 8-10) Paul discussed the Jewish believers' inclusion in Christ. The we in verse 11 seems to be a distinct group from the anonymouse "we/us" in verses 3-10. This is supported by two facts: (1) verse 11 includes the word also and (2) verse 13 changes to "you also," which refers to Gentile believers. Though both Jews and Gentiles participate in God's blessings, the Jews were called first. In Ephesians 1:11 chosen (eklerothemen) is not the same word used in verse 4 (exelexato). The word in verse 11 (used only here in the NT) means "to cast a lot" or "to appoint or obtain by lot". In this context it is best rendered "to be chosen, appointed, or destined." Jewish believers were chosen because they were predestined. But this predestination is not a matter of whim or caprice on God's part; it is according the the plan (prothesin, "purpose) of His will (thelematos). The combination of these words---prothesin, boulen, thelematos---gives a forceful emphasis of God's sovereignty for including the Jewish believers in the church, which is headed up by Christ. The purpose of God's choice of Jewish believers is that they might be for the praise of his glory, which parallels verse 6. The words "for the praise of his glory" serve as a refrain used after a description of the work of each Person of the Trinity. The relative clause, who were the first to hope in Christ, further substantiates that verses 11-12 refer to Jewish believers as opposed to Gentile believers because the Jews did precede the Gentiles chronologically in the faith.
Just some quick comments, It's God's will that we be perfect, but we still sin. It was God's will that Jonah preach to Ninevah, but he ran away(for a while). It's God's will that all Christians have unity, but we don't. So this seems to indicate that our sin stil separates us from God's will. However, God convicts us, God sent the Big Fish, God is still working within our divisions. So this seems to indicate that God's will is still being accomplished, in spite of our "free will". It seems like His will for some things will not be accomplished until Jesus' return, or heaven. (At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow)(unity, perfection) It seems to me that God is actively working in our lives and if we follow His leading, we are then in His best will for us. If we choose to stray off the path, then we will have to suffer any consequences and when we turn back to God, we may be on Plan B,C,D...Say that God wanted us to help someone and intervened so that our paths crossed with this someone and He urges us through His Spirit to help this someone. If we do, great! God's will is accomplished. If we don't, well, maybe we get a second chance or maybe He gets someone else to help. His will is still accomplished, but not by us. The Israelites were supposed to go to the Promised Land (God's will), but they didn't do what God told them to, so they wandered around in the desert for 40 years, until the disobedient generation died off. Then the remnant followed God's commands and entered. The ultimate will is accomplished, but by a different group of people at a different time. I think God is omniscient(sp?)and knows everything, but still allows us to make choices. I also think that because He is all-knowing, He intervenes in our lives, through the Holy Spirit, through supernatural means, through natural means to ultimately accomplish His will. It's His will that all come to repentance, that none should perish. I think God works in our lives to bring us to that point.(a verse says He will not always strive with man) He may protect some unrepentant soul from early death, or He may bring that soul into contact with believers that will witness, or He may allow dreadful circumstances so that the soul would turn to God, etc. That soul could still choose to not repent. In this case God's will is not accomplished. Except for the overlying will that God has allowed us the freedom to choose. I guess those who believe in no free will would say all the sin and wrong choices are God's will. That would mean that it was God's will that some reject Him, which I find impossible to accept. God's love, mercy, and grace would seem to me to disallow this alternative. This was longer that I anticipated. Did I make any sense? Love MOM
# posted by 
: 9/01/2004 10:57:00 AM
: 9/01/2004 10:57:00 AM
Could it be possible for it to be entirely within God's will that we, at least potentially, mess things up altogether?
I'd like Sammmy (the 9 month old bundle of something living a few doors down from me) to smile at me, but it doesn't count if I curl the edge of his mouth up with my fingers. I'd also like him not to hurt himself, but not to the extent where I think he should be protected from ever doing so. That would destroy the interestingness within him, and his potential to increase that interestingness.
But I'll stop now. I dunno.
I'd like Sammmy (the 9 month old bundle of something living a few doors down from me) to smile at me, but it doesn't count if I curl the edge of his mouth up with my fingers. I'd also like him not to hurt himself, but not to the extent where I think he should be protected from ever doing so. That would destroy the interestingness within him, and his potential to increase that interestingness.
But I'll stop now. I dunno.
I think God obviously doesn't stop us from making mistakes (necessarily). The Bible says He provides a way of escape when we are tempted to sin, but it's up to us to choose to take it or not. He can teach us from our mistakes and even use us to help others who are similar situations. I think that's what said in the Bible, that God works things together for good. But I think His original plan in the garden was for perfect fellowship. But man chose to sin. This original plan was reiterated in the life of Jesus. He lived the life of perfect fellowship with God the Father. The Bible says God wants us to be conformed to the image of His Son. It's our choice of sin that separates us. God knew we couldn't do it, so Jesus paid the price.
By the way, Pete, I've been keeping up with your blog and your posts on DWebb. You're a neat guy, you make me laugh and you make me think. I pray that you continue to seek after God and that He leads you to the Truth you seek.
(Chris') MOM (apologizes for talking to Pete on Chris' blog, Is that poor blog etiquette?)
By the way, Pete, I've been keeping up with your blog and your posts on DWebb. You're a neat guy, you make me laugh and you make me think. I pray that you continue to seek after God and that He leads you to the Truth you seek.
(Chris') MOM (apologizes for talking to Pete on Chris' blog, Is that poor blog etiquette?)
# posted by : 9/02/2004 06:40:00 AM
: 9/02/2004 06:40:00 AM
I just thought of something, about making the baby smile. No you don't force the smile, because that's not what you want. But you do tickle and make funny faces and noises and wiggle the stuffed toy, to encourage the baby to laugh on his own.
Hmm.
MOM, again
Hmm.
MOM, again
# posted by : 9/02/2004 06:43:00 AM
: 9/02/2004 06:43:00 AM
Aw, that's very kind. You seem to me to be an exceptionally neat gal. If I may say that.
Please write sometime. Unless you don't want to.
I like your baby additions. I like the idea of a God who does not merely watch us with hope, but also tickles and dances around us (though not in a wildly pentecostal sort of way) and wants to make us smile. He might too, if we let him.
I have occasionally wondered whether dogs are simply one of God's many big jokes. Because, really, they are very silly creatures. It's only when we see them all the time that we stop getting the joke.
Thanks for what you wrote
Pete (who doesn't know about blog etiquette, but thinks we should work together to prise this one off Chris and make it our own)
Please write sometime. Unless you don't want to.
I like your baby additions. I like the idea of a God who does not merely watch us with hope, but also tickles and dances around us (though not in a wildly pentecostal sort of way) and wants to make us smile. He might too, if we let him.
I have occasionally wondered whether dogs are simply one of God's many big jokes. Because, really, they are very silly creatures. It's only when we see them all the time that we stop getting the joke.
Thanks for what you wrote
Pete (who doesn't know about blog etiquette, but thinks we should work together to prise this one off Chris and make it our own)
We could call it "It's Our Life". He only posts on the weekend anyway.
So, Pete, this is a holiday weekend for us. Labor Day is Monday, so most of us get a day off. Yeah! My newly married daughter and her husband are coming over for the weekend, and my youngest daughter's birthday is Monday. (Chris and Val's are the 6th and 7th) So we are looking forward to a fun time. Will you be smiling this weekend?
MOM
So, Pete, this is a holiday weekend for us. Labor Day is Monday, so most of us get a day off. Yeah! My newly married daughter and her husband are coming over for the weekend, and my youngest daughter's birthday is Monday. (Chris and Val's are the 6th and 7th) So we are looking forward to a fun time. Will you be smiling this weekend?
MOM
# posted by : 9/03/2004 06:48:00 AM
: 9/03/2004 06:48:00 AM
Oooh, I don't know about smiling. Maybe a few times.
It's not a holiday weekend for us, though I have no job now so it doesn't really make much difference. I might help a friend set up a room full of computers. I'll smile if he buys me lunch. Otherwise I'll frown and complain and drop things noisily.
"It's Our Life" sounds good. And I bet it would contain posts on weekdays too.
Any ideas what Chris' password might be?
The dates you wrote confuse me, but please convey my birthday greetings to all who will be aging in the near future. I understand that they won't all know me, but hopefully it'll mean just as much to them as if they did.
And a Happy Labor Day! to you too.
Why such an inappropriate name for a day off work?
Pete
It's not a holiday weekend for us, though I have no job now so it doesn't really make much difference. I might help a friend set up a room full of computers. I'll smile if he buys me lunch. Otherwise I'll frown and complain and drop things noisily.
"It's Our Life" sounds good. And I bet it would contain posts on weekdays too.
Any ideas what Chris' password might be?
The dates you wrote confuse me, but please convey my birthday greetings to all who will be aging in the near future. I understand that they won't all know me, but hopefully it'll mean just as much to them as if they did.
And a Happy Labor Day! to you too.
Why such an inappropriate name for a day off work?
Pete
I don't know Chris's password, but he seems to favor Old Testament references. Sorry about the date confusion. My youngest daughter's birthday is Sunday, not Monday. Chris' birthday is Sept 6 (that would be Monday) and Val(Chris' new wife) is Tuesday Sept 7. Then my oldest daughter's birthday is Sunday Sept 12. I always thought it was ironic that I had 3 of 4 children on or around labor day. I would have said funny (instead of ironic) but I never thought labor pains were all that humorous.
I would prescibe that you look for and find one thing to smile about, your mission should you choose to accept it (a mission possible). I think you need some fun and joy in your life.
Happy Labor Day!
Dr. MOM
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I would prescibe that you look for and find one thing to smile about, your mission should you choose to accept it (a mission possible). I think you need some fun and joy in your life.
Happy Labor Day!
Dr. MOM
# posted by : 9/03/2004 12:29:00 PM
: 9/03/2004 12:29:00 PMSubscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
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